Choosing to ride the subway as a White man in New York is unadvisable. Choosing, as a White man, to get into an altercation with a Black person on the subway in New York is stupider than choosing to go to a riot with a gun in Kenosha, Wisconsin."
so just accept the fact that you are a second class citizen and then black people boss you around? there is nothing more slave morality than that. White people do not have a social obligation to shut up and take it.
You are in fact a second class citizen. You don't have to accept it and you should work for change, but you'd be a fool not to acknowledge that that is the situation on the ground right now, especially in New York.
I think everyone recognizes that prudence is not always the same thing as slave morality. I don't walk through Harlem in the middle of the night shouting racial slurs.
Did Daniel Penny ever apologize or admit wrongdoing? Not that I'm aware of. That being the case, I don't see how you can claim that he didn't "act like a man," which is a highly nebulous concept to begin with. If I'd been on that subway instead of Penny, I guarantee you I would have avoided that situation rather than doing what Penny did, but I wouldn't claim that doing so makes me more "manly" somehow.
I agree that Rittenhouse is more sympathetic because his life was actually at risk, or at least, much more plausibly at risk. But I'm not sure why one can't simply sympathize with both of them. Penny's actions were entirely justified based on what I know about his case.
Penny's actions were absolutely justified and I sympathize with him. I just like Rittenhouse a lot more, which seems to be the opposite of how some other conservatives feel.
I do think that what Rittenhouse did was more manly, and not because his life was at risk.
Rittenhouse:
1. Intentionally and deliberately stood up for his community
2. Went to the media and vociferously defended his right to bear arms
3. Testified in his own defense.
Penny:
1. Chose to live in New York
2. Stumbled into a situation he had not planned.
3. Avoided the media except to tell everyone that he's not racist (admittedly Rittenhouse also told everyone he wasn't racist.)
4. Did not testify in his own defense.
Rittenhouse showed a lot of gumption. I think our people need more of that.
Penny's case is more outrageous precisely because he merely "acted like a moderate" -- i.e., he did the right thing, which basically any society in human history would applaud, and which the bystanders did as well. So that makes prosecuting him more outrageous.
You say Penny "should have known better. Anyone who thinks that a White man will get a fair trial in New York for a conflict with a Black man is a fool."
That judgement is way too "online" ... most people, even if we've seen some anecdotes along those lines, haven't internalized that. And I'm not even sure to what extent it's true, vs just a few high-profile cases getting that treatment.
Rittenhouse is great, too, but his action is closer to "go meet the enemy in war. Which is something to greatly respect, but the wisdom can be debated.
I suppose it's impossible to settle the fair trial point without combing through hundreds of NYC court cases, but I think most White people have internalized the norm that they should not contradict or get into confrontations with Black people.
Exactly, I wouldn't call Rittenhouse wise. I call him brave. There are more ways than one to "be a man" and I hate the stereotypes people keep pushing onto males (and everyone else)
I think "acting like a man" and "acting like a moderate" are not opposites. I also don't think Penny did anything wrong by riding on the subway. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time and I hope he gets out of this OK because he also acted like a hero.
Choosing to ride the subway as a White man in New York is unadvisable. Choosing, as a White man, to get into an altercation with a Black person on the subway in New York is stupider than choosing to go to a riot with a gun in Kenosha, Wisconsin."
so just accept the fact that you are a second class citizen and then black people boss you around? there is nothing more slave morality than that. White people do not have a social obligation to shut up and take it.
You are in fact a second class citizen. You don't have to accept it and you should work for change, but you'd be a fool not to acknowledge that that is the situation on the ground right now, especially in New York.
I think everyone recognizes that prudence is not always the same thing as slave morality. I don't walk through Harlem in the middle of the night shouting racial slurs.
Did Daniel Penny ever apologize or admit wrongdoing? Not that I'm aware of. That being the case, I don't see how you can claim that he didn't "act like a man," which is a highly nebulous concept to begin with. If I'd been on that subway instead of Penny, I guarantee you I would have avoided that situation rather than doing what Penny did, but I wouldn't claim that doing so makes me more "manly" somehow.
I agree that Rittenhouse is more sympathetic because his life was actually at risk, or at least, much more plausibly at risk. But I'm not sure why one can't simply sympathize with both of them. Penny's actions were entirely justified based on what I know about his case.
Penny's actions were absolutely justified and I sympathize with him. I just like Rittenhouse a lot more, which seems to be the opposite of how some other conservatives feel.
I do think that what Rittenhouse did was more manly, and not because his life was at risk.
Rittenhouse:
1. Intentionally and deliberately stood up for his community
2. Went to the media and vociferously defended his right to bear arms
3. Testified in his own defense.
Penny:
1. Chose to live in New York
2. Stumbled into a situation he had not planned.
3. Avoided the media except to tell everyone that he's not racist (admittedly Rittenhouse also told everyone he wasn't racist.)
4. Did not testify in his own defense.
Rittenhouse showed a lot of gumption. I think our people need more of that.
They're both great.
I (late 30s) agree with Walsh, Carl, etc.
Penny's case is more outrageous precisely because he merely "acted like a moderate" -- i.e., he did the right thing, which basically any society in human history would applaud, and which the bystanders did as well. So that makes prosecuting him more outrageous.
You say Penny "should have known better. Anyone who thinks that a White man will get a fair trial in New York for a conflict with a Black man is a fool."
That judgement is way too "online" ... most people, even if we've seen some anecdotes along those lines, haven't internalized that. And I'm not even sure to what extent it's true, vs just a few high-profile cases getting that treatment.
Rittenhouse is great, too, but his action is closer to "go meet the enemy in war. Which is something to greatly respect, but the wisdom can be debated.
I suppose it's impossible to settle the fair trial point without combing through hundreds of NYC court cases, but I think most White people have internalized the norm that they should not contradict or get into confrontations with Black people.
We can be confident that a black person who did what Neely did would not have been charged, because a black man who stabbed a man in self defense on the subway last year was released without charges. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/charges-dropped-jordan-williams-nyc-man-accused-fatal-subway-stabbing-rcna91780
Exactly, I wouldn't call Rittenhouse wise. I call him brave. There are more ways than one to "be a man" and I hate the stereotypes people keep pushing onto males (and everyone else)
I agree. Rittenhouse checks more thematic boxes. It’s like the difference between Jesus and Socrates even though they both have similar story arcs.
I think "acting like a man" and "acting like a moderate" are not opposites. I also don't think Penny did anything wrong by riding on the subway. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time and I hope he gets out of this OK because he also acted like a hero.